MJLorton Solar Power and Electronic Measurement Equipment Forum
Product Reviews => Product Reviews => Topic started by: MJLorton on January 10, 2013, 04:17:07 AM
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Hi Folks,
Had to post this for a laugh before getting my head down into the next tutorial.
First off, thanks to the kind gent that made a donation towards the Fluke 17b...I'll keep donators names anonymous unless they say otherwise.
As stated, I was keen to get one of these into my paws to see and feel it first hand...and my initial impression is that the meter itself feels good...certainly seems to be in spec for its limited resolution.
I paid a slightly higher price for the 17b ($108.99) as it came from the US...and it came "w/ Free Case w/ Fluke Test Leads TL175". I knew I was getting a really good deal here ;D....or it would provide some content....a win win in my case!
Just for interest...it cost me a further $40 to get it shipped to South Africa, as that's the only option they offered...but it did get here fairly swiftly....then a trip and further R178.70 ($21) to SA customs for clearance...got to love them!
So...the first thing I did was have a close look at the leads...and as I have a genuine set of TL175's (thanks to Comtest) I put them side by side...
The pictures tell most of the story...they are fake...but note the picture in the ebay store, how they particularly point out the "Fluke TL175" in the photo!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221050433989
The "twist" mechanism to shield / unshield to probes is very dodge...the probes seem to be so-so quality...but the leads do seem to be silicone but not obviously the special leads that Fluke use to indicate wear.
So....buyer...beware...if it seems to good to be true.... ;)
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Oh my !! We have a Trademark violation among the other issues (IEC 61010 Violation) . ;D
The one who did the cloning he was not even brave enough to baptize those as FLIKE or FTUKE !! hahahaha
Now imagine just that... the one who did it, he had primarily in mind to cheat on the back of their own Chinese people, which it is sad even as thought.
Happy new year Martin !! :)
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Wonder how much copper is in them then. Apply 10A from your power supply and see the difference in voltage drop across each cable comparing the real Fluke to the "Fluke Fluke" lead.
If you do not like them then a quick bit of surgery with a sharp blade and a few photo's of the inner construction of the cable and the probe ends then.
Yasu Kirakos, plagiarism is the most sincere form of flattery...................
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Yasu Kirakos, plagiarism is the most sincere form of flattery...................
Hi Sean I am just in my first cup of coffee and I got a bit confused with your comment,
is it possible to explain a bit further your consept?
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That's very interesting to note! I did a bit of research and actually found that these so-called TL175's actually come standard with the 17B and 15B Chinese-market only multimeters, even from shops that claim to be authorized official distributors of Fluke products. I have no proof but my theory is that they aren't exactly "fake", but a lower cost/quality, for Chinese market only version of the standalone TL175.
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Copying a Chinese design, means they really like it, and think it is worth the time and effort to copy. You do not copy something that you think is worthless, unless somebody is fool enough to pay you to do so.
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I have no proof but my theory is that they aren't exactly "fake", but a lower cost/quality, for Chinese market only version of the standalone TL175.
When you stamp your products with CAT ratting, it translates that you are complying in full with the IEC safety standards.
There is no such thing as : a just a bit of compliance = partial compliance.
And basically what spoils the sup by a naked eye inspection, is just the banana connector.
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Copying a Chinese design, means they really like it, and think it is worth the time and effort to copy. You do not copy something that you think is worthless, unless somebody is fool enough to pay you to do so.
FLUKE has a document in which it explains their thoughts of how they researching the market in order to design their test leads, by traveling the world and by getting feedback from their customers in USA and Europe.
I do not think that the FLUKE headquarters are aware about this item.
It is unthicable to me that they would risk to become a laughing stock for one silly made banana.
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I think I'm going to order one of these Chinese/fake TL175 from China, cut them up and see what's inside :)
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I will look forward to that Frankie.wonder how much the 17B costs from PRC, but must not spend any more money now, bills to pay..............
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I have Tweet the story to Fluke, I bet that right now they are scratching their heads about it.
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I have an alternate theory.
Perhaps these are Fluke "oops" products that were meant to be destroyed, but some enterprising person loaded them up in his van and made off with them?
I say "oops" because obviously the plug-in end is missing the strain relief, but the probes themselves look genuine if I compare them to this picture
http://www.active123.com/TL175-Twistguardtm-Test-Leads-2mm-Dia-Probe-Tips-Prodview.html
Active123 is an authorized Fluke dealer in Canada and their pictures show the non yellow colored probes.
Even the "fake" plug in ends look like genuine TL75 plugs right down to the cross or "X" metal internal plug.
It is confusing since the ones sold at Active123 don't have the yellow coloring, yet both are the exact same part number.
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Hmm, in Dave's episode 185 (Fluke 87V GSM fix), the TL175 probes are shown at 14:23 into the video. Since Fluke sent that prototype 87V directly to Dave, I highly doubt he got any counterfeit probes.
Notice they don't have the yellow coloring, but he does have the strain relief on the plugs.
So maybe my manufacturing "oops" theory holds some water?
Although I have only been seriously interested in multimeters for the past year, I don't think I have seen any counterfeit Fluke products. Sure there are many lookalikes, but I could be entirely wrong on this subject matter. I guess only Fluke knows for sure.
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Sorry, found one more piece of information that Fluke may have added the yellow coloring in later versions. Press release from 2011 shows no yellow.
http://www.warwickts.com/latest-news.asp?id=23
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FLUKE kindly responded in my message, this is their point of view.
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I think their reply is very interesting and telling. I'd guess they believe they are counterfeit also as they were compared by a man owing the "real Fluke" leads. Had they not thought so I think they would have explained the difference in some way...
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Had they not thought so I think they would have explained the difference in some way...
If Fluke "fluked up" in oops manufacturing, there is no way they would admit it in a public forum.
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Had they not thought so I think they would have explained the difference in some way...
If Fluke "fluked up" in oops manufacturing, there is no way they would admit it in a public forum.
I know for a fact that there's an OEM factory in China of a certain reputable brand that is trying to off load a small batch of equipments that is slightly faulty. So these things do happen in China.
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Martin,
Have you informed the ebay seller he is selling fake probes? If wonder if you would get a genuine replacement set or some money back?
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I have a set of TL175E's and TL175's as well.
The TL175's are grey/black color like the set you received with the 17b, they look identical in all ways but one. (the strain relief on the shrouded end is different then that set, they are identical to the TL175E's strain relief.) and also have a somewhat rough retract of the probe compared to the 175E's. My employer received them from a fluke authorized dealer about a year ago. Will try and get some side by side pics of the 2, if I can manage to get them out of the work area there without getting into trouble. (Not allowed to have cameras or even cell phones into my workplace lab area.)
The ones you received may well be a cost reduced version for the chinese market. They did it with the "usual" probes that come with the 17B, which are crap IMO.
The TL175E's have yellow surrounding the "Fluke" on them, and smooth retracts for the shrouds. I keep a set in my on-site kit, though I much prefer the feel/size of the good ole TL-71's.
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I'm still keen to get an answer from Fluke and I'm thinking of posting a further video on the subject after one of my viewers sent me this communication:
"After viewing your YouTube video where you showed the difference between the leads supplied with your Fluke 17B and the Fluke TL178 TwistGuard leads, I started to panic as I had ordered a set of TL175 TwistGuard leads off of Ebay a few weeks ago. What I received were the same as what you received with your 17B, so I sent an email to fluke Australia for more information and below is the reply I received."
The "first image" my viewer included was of the "genuine" Fluke TL175 leads that I also have:
http://www.fluke.com/Fluke/usen/Accessories/Test-Leads-Probes-and-Clips/TL175.htm?PID=70420&trck=tl175
The second image was of the "original" (noted by my eBay seller) TL175's (fake or dodge production version??)
Fluke Australia response to my viewer:
"While we supply the TL175 as per the first image, as far as I can tell the unit you have received is authentic but I’m not sure if they are a Chinese version"
So...I have issue with this...some of the key points advertised and noted by Fluke on the TL175's:
"Patented TwistGuard™ extendable tip shroud meets the highest electrical safety requirements to reduce tip exposure while providing the versatility needed for most measurements
New WearGuard™ lead wire wear indication. Each test lead is covered by two layers of silicone insulation; inner contrasting color is exposed when the leads are nicked, scuffed, or otherwise damaged and in need of replacement
Double insulated silicone leads. TL175 test leads withstand high temperatures and remain flexible in cold temperatures.
Extra-heavy duty strain relief on both probe-end and plug-end, tested beyond 30,000 bends without failure.
Universal input plugs are compatible with all instruments that accept standard 4 mm shrouded banana plugs
Ratings: CAT II 1000 V, CAT III 1000 V, CAT IV 600 V, 10 A max., Pollution Degree 2
TL175E also available. Includes removable 4 mm lantern tips that thread onto the lead tip
Probes always show correct category rating for tip being used
Environmental ratings: -20 °C to 55 °C (-4 °F to 131 °F), altitude: 2000 m (6,562 ft)
Conforms to EN61010-031
One-year warranty"
The "Fluke" TL175 leads I have certainly don't comply on certain of the points noted above. I'm about to (on camera) cut the lead to see if there is double insulation and the "WearGuard™".
If these are fake...then Fluke clearly need to state that. If they are produced by Fluke....how can they have the same name (TL175) as this is VERY misleading to say the least..
I will leave feedback for my eBay seller once the picture / origin of these "Fluke" TL175 leads becomes clearer....
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I'm just about to edit and post the video on the "Fluke" TL175 Leads....
Here is the result after cutting one of the leads of the "original" Fluke TL175's I received with the Fluke 17b off eBay....
It certainly looks like these have the "WearGuard™" that Fluke advertise....so these are either an elaborate copy / fake / knock-off...or manufactured by Fluke.
The "Patented TwistGuard™ on these eBay TL175's is very stiff and does not work very well...the plastic used by the "TwistGuard™" feels inferior.
I still say...if these are made by Fluke, they should have some name change or version number to show that they are different....your thoughts?
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The TL175 leads I ordered from China (just the leads, no meter) should arrive later this week and I'll do the same thing and cut it up and report here.
I still believe in my own theory that these are Fluke's made-for-Chinese-only TL175's. There can't possibly be much demand for the "western" much more expensive version TL175's in the domestic Chinese market and these Chinese TL175's aren't supposed to be sold to other markets anyway, so in an ideal world without eBay and parallel importers there wouldn't have been any confusion. It's rather common in China for products to have a domestic version and an export version, sharing the same model number, but having different interface language/packaging/documentation/pricing.
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Decent amount of copper in there, certainly the most expensive part. Most likely as Frankie says these are an "internal market" item and are most likely not a fake.
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Some light in regard of this Fluke document .
http://www.fluke.com/fluke/usen/about/press/new-tl175-twistguard-test-leads.htm
1) Fluke’s first leads with WearGuard™ insulation. = We just using it, its not OUR IDEA.... and good for them because they are not making cables.
2) The universal input plugs work with all popular brands of digital multimeters with 4 mm input jacks. = We just using it, its not OUR IDEA.... and good for them because they are not making plugs.
3) announced today the availability of the new TL175 TwistGuard™ Test Leads, the only test leads in the world with a manually adjustable test tip guard
Yes the final lead idea it looks to belong to Fluke.
Summury of all the above, the cable and banana it is new universal designs which follow the new safety directives.
In simple words those materials can not be used as proofs of authentichy of such or similar products.
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Martin this pictured side cutter is terible. :)
But this is expected from a 12$ set of tools.
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Martin this pictured side cutter is terible. :)
But this is expected from a 12$ set of tools.
Well then, you clearly have money to spare, send him some better ones! ;)
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It's rather common in China for products to have a domestic version and an export version, sharing the same model number, but having different interface language/packaging/documentation/pricing.
If Fluke have done the above for the TL175, that is a terrible branding decision to have two identical product numbers but different packaging.
I know there is a Fluke 117C and Fluke 115C from various ebay auctions. You can clearly see the "C" in the photo and can see Chinese writing on the back of the battery cover. Internally, they may or may not be the same? But at least the buyer knows this is meant for the China market.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221176074309
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Martin this pictured side cutter is terible. :)
But this is expected from a 12$ set of tools.
Well then, you clearly have money to spare, send him some better ones! ;)
If he is capable to buy an Agilent scope, he does not need any help from my side.
This cheapo set of tools is about hobbyists which open up mobile phones, and in this regard I am an hobbyist.
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It's rather common in China for products to have a domestic version and an export version, sharing the same model number, but having different interface language/packaging/documentation/pricing.
If Fluke have done the above for the TL175, that is a terrible branding decision to have two identical product numbers but different packaging.
Absolutely true. I for one didn't know that you apparently have to get the "E" version to get the "good" ones. They're all generally referred to as TL175s, so I suspect I am not alone.
Edit: upon further research I see that the "E" suffix is for the ones that come with lantern tips. Still makes no sense to have two vastly different products with the same model number.
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I just want to notice that double layer isolation (with different color eg. whit+black/red) are nothing special. For example silicon cable which I buy at local store for about 1Eur / m, have it! ;-)
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True, it has been a mandatory thing for mains cabling for decades, though it is only recently it is being advertised in test leads.
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And one more thing that I just notice, that banana plug on this "not genuine" test leads are the same as on my old genuine test lead (TL-75)
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With Martin's pending review of the Fluke 17B and knowing that some viewers may be interested in purchasing one, I noticed a few suspicious ebay listings in the last week (Jan 28, 2013) that potential buyers should be aware of.
The sellers are listing the Fluke 15B, 17B and 18B for a fairly low Buy It Now price, but shipping is $50 USD. These sellers also have no feedback (zero) and the terms of their customer service is very suspect. For example, they will gladly accept any defective items back minus the cost of original shipping.
Ebay buyer protection may or may not cover you, but why take the chance?
Also, keep in mind, there is NO WARRANTY from Fluke on any of the above multimeters once they are shipped outside China. I would also caution buyers that the seller's warranty is likely WORTHLESS and the cost of shipping the multimeter back to China is cost prohibitive.
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Thanks retiredcaps for that info.
Another important note about the "Fluke" leads I received from ebay is the actual banana plugs themselves. There are different connector types that have specific names that I don't have to hand.
The first picture is of a banana plug without a shroud so you can clearly see a good quality connector type. This is the type used in good multimeter / Fluke leads.
The connector type in the leads I received off ebay is the cheap "splayed apart" type that get squeezed together over time and become loose.
The second picture shows these types in shrouded leads....top shrouded lead is the ebay lead....bottom is a genuine Fluke lead.
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Another bit of news / rumour....Fluke might be releasing a Fluke 17B version for the international market...I'm hoping to get my hands on one through official channels soon...
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The connector type in the leads I received off ebay is the cheap "splayed apart" type that get squeezed together over time and become loose.
In my experience, it is the material and build quality that is more important than the design. The 'cage' type design is just as susceptible to weakening over time and becoming loose, as the 'split' design.
The plugs on the old standard Fluke TL75 leads are made with the split design, and I have quite a few very old pairs of them that still grip as tightly as when they were new.
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Virtually all my multimeters have "permanent" probes. I rarely disconnect them and I rarely measure current.
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Interesting comment caps, I'm wondering if you simply have enough high quality bench meters you measure current with or you depend on clamp meters for such things, or whether you ever measure current on the bench ????
My leads, because I don't work in the field or anywhere else for that mater, are always disconnected from my meters and hanging on hooks about my bench. When I intend to use a set for any kind of current I chose one of the 10 or 12 quality leads from those hooks, but I must say, I really reach for the shorter leads most of the time like the very affordable silicone leads I got from Franky.
But, I am curious, do you simply have no need to measure current caps ?
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But, I am curious, do you simply have no need to measure current caps ?
In real life, the only time I have ever needed to measure current was on my car battery because I thought I had a parasitic car battery drain.
If I get a "new to me" multimeter, then I might measure current consumption to see what I can expect for battery life.
I participate in the forums over at badcaps.net helping people fix electronics and it is rare that I ask people to measure current. So even in my "virtual" life, I rarely measure current.
I also don't design circuits or even have a breadboard. As such, I don't have any bench multimeters or current clamps.
PS. With the price of Fluke fuses, I have even more incentive not to measure current! ;D
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I have also noticed that some older original Fluke 87s are missing their plastic guard towers presumably either to unshrouded leads or too many insertions/removals?
See this auction's picture for an example.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/300832503757
Replacement input jacks are in the > $30 range.
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The sellers are listing the Fluke 15B, 17B and 18B for a fairly low Buy It Now price, but shipping is $50 USD.
As I mentioned, some ebay sellers are trying "trick" buyers with a low BIN price, but with high shipping. >:(
Well, eventually karma comes into play.
A seller listed a Fluke 15B for a BIN of $14.99, but screwed up on the shipping costs. Instead of putting $50, they put $5 (five) dollars. At least 6 people hit BIN and presumably completed the paypal transaction ASAP.
When sellers play those high shipping costs shell games to take advantage of the buyer, I have no sympathy when they screw up and I hope ebay forces them to honor the deal or the buyers give them negatives.
PS. This seller has over 7,000 transactions so it is not a newbie.