MJLorton Solar Power and Electronic Measurement Equipment Forum
Youtube Video Episodes => YouTube Video Episodes => Topic started by: BravoV on January 03, 2014, 04:09:44 AM
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My fresh 1st post here ! :P
Martin, just want to thank you in making the video just for addressing this issue, really appreciate that knowingly you're having quite some hectic time at this moment in your life there.
Looking forward to hear Fluke(Duane) responds for these from you.
Again, thank you.
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My pleasure.
Here is a link to the video as a reference for others: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VySoQ5CLmF0
Duane has just emailed this response to me:
On 1/6/2014 6:40 PM, Smith, Duane wrote:> We are aware of the failures of this particular part. We are working with the vendor in hopes of determining why these particular parts are leaking.
> Customers who have units either where the cap has failed or experienced leakage can get their units repaired under warranty at their closest Fluke service facility.
> Since this part is soldered to the pcb, customer replacement is not recommended as it will void the units warranty.
>
> The capacitor specification says that the capacitor should draw <150 uA after 10 minutes.
> If there were one measurement to take, it would be to measure battery draw with the unit off after applying the battery voltage for 10 minutes. The
> current draw on failed caps will rise after 10 minutes.
>
> The good news is the supercap is only in the unit to maintain the units date and time. It has no other purpose. It does not support instrument memory or logged /saved readings.
> After we hear back from our component vendor we will determine next steps needed if any but for the short-term customers who own units affected by this part can have it replaced
> under warranty through Fluke service centers worldwide.
>
> Cheers, Duane
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Martin, thank you !
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Does anyone have a schematic / service manual for any of the Fluke models affected? i'm just curious to see the circuit arrangement with the super-cap.
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yes I have a fluke 289 and it's my favourite meter, I must check the super cap this weekend. also does anyone have issues with the ac voltage measurement, sometimes I get a reading of around 3.4 vac with the probes open circuit in mid air!!! and it should read 0v give our take a few millivolts. if I toggle the selector switch to another function and back again it returns to normal. and also lately I find like a ghosting or Flicker in the display, I must say for the price of the meter I am a little disappointed. having said a all that thanks for pointing out the issue with the video, it was your review of the meter on YouTube that convinced me to make the purchase, keep up the good work :)
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Does anyone have a schematic / service manual for any of the Fluke models affected?
The service manual I found for the 87IV and 89IV have no schematics.
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:( Ok so i just opened my 289 and im gutted. the cap is showing signs of corrosion. i have it 8-9 months date of manufacture is 9-april-2012. and when i put the batteries back in i had to enter the correct time. I'm a little disappointed in the build quality as i was expecting this meter to serve me well for many years to come. i have attached a photo but im not sure if its clear enough to see
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Time to RMA it then, or order a new capacitor and solder it in if you are not covered by a warranty any more.
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Ya i'm in the middle of composing a strongly worded email to there customer service department!
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i have it 8-9 months date of manufacture is 9-april-2012.
If you are the original owner and purchased it from an authorized Fluke dealer, I suggest sending it in for warranty. Though not guaranteed, there are stories on the Internet, that Fluke usually does a calibration check on your meter for free with your repair/replacement.
If Fluke service gives you a problem, refer them to Martin's video and Duane's email response.
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Further feedback from Duane (Fluke)"
"As a follow up to this discussion, I've attached the datasheet for the supercap. If you review Note 1 toward the bottom of the page, it makes note of "brown deposited materials found around the sealing area" and the fact that this material will not affect the electrical performance of the part. So, in essence in some situations this leakage could be found as normal under some environmental conditions. Regardless, we plan on still working with the vendor to clarify this further."
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If it did not keep time while the battery was removed, and the time without battery was less than probably 24 hours ( what the capacitor should at least be capable of running the clock, I have seen some that will last a month or more running a real time clock on a similar supercap without power) then the capacitor is definitely faulty. The cap should at least be capable of running the clock for a day to cover the battery going flat and you getting new ones the next day.
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Yes i would imagine there is something wrong with it alright. i would only know the basics when it comes to electronics to be fair. My trade is focused on more low voltage automation control and repair. having said that i am learning bit by bit and am extremely grateful for all your help and advice between these forums and the videos posted on you tube. so thank you all.
Having said that here is the first reply i received from fluke uk customer service an hour ago with regard the 289.
Thank you for contacting Fluke, the 280 series are under the “Industrial Products Limited Lifetime Warranty”, please see this web page for more information.
http://www.fluke.com/fluke/uken/service/warranties/default.htm
Please call or e-mail Fluke service from the contact details on this same web page to arrange repair of your meter. Alternatively the unit can be returned to the distributor you purchased from to arrange repair, our apologies for any inconvenience caused.
Regards
Phil Sabberton
Fluke UK Tech Support
So i have sent the same mail to the address on the website stated above (UKServiceDesk@fluke.com)
I shall post there reply when i receive one. hopefully it might save someone like me some time.
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With regards SeanB last post i only had the batteries out an hour at most and i had to enter the time again but the date was correct
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So voltage dropped below the minimum needed to keep the clock oscillator running but was above the minimum retention voltage. How much was the time behind, gives an indication of how long it took the cap to discharge below the critical voltage. Depending on the clock circuit used it probably stopped at around 1V8 for the clock.
Wonder what the voltage is across the capacitor in a meter with the batteries in it, would be interesting to see the voltage, as the abs. max voltage for the capacitor is 3V3. most of these capacitors that I have seen with a single capacitor unit are 2V5 rated with 3V as an absolute max short term voltage. A more reliable alternative would be a 5v unit, as it has 2 matched cell units in series.
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Ok guys..
I took apart my meter again.
17:16pm removed batteries
left them out for an hour
replaced batteries at 18:17pm
meter time message said i had to update the clock
it was showing a time of 17:17.15pm
so the cap isn't holding a charge at all
i put new batteries in meter 9.75V dc off load using a fluke 117 dmm
used links from battery pack to 289 meters pcb.
the cap was measuring 1.190V dc before i connected battery
with battery connected 9.74V dc on load
the cap charged to 3.142V dc instantly and topped at 3.162V dc
removed supply voltage and cap dropped to 1.237 over about 15 seconds and continued to drop at a much slower rate.
Metered cap using the 117 dmm set on capacitance and the display changed from 0 nF (leads open circuit) to ol micro farads.
id safely say the cap has failed
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Dead, died and the only reason it is still there is that it is soldered to the perch. It is pining for the fjords. It is an eX-capacitor.
Probably the internal impedance is rather higher than the maximum specced 4k of the datasheet. If it was mine i would put in a 1F 5V5 supercap, plenty enough room in there for it, though you might have to use 2 short leads to connect it for some of the larger units and a small foam tape hold down to stop rattling.
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Ya if it were only that simple
put the meter back together and now its dead. i have a blue screen on the meter and nothhing else it wont even turn off unless i pull the battery pack :-[
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Open, short the cap terminals for around a minute, short the battery terminals and try again. Likely the internal micro was confused by trying to measure the capacitance, that can only be done with a controlled constant charge and discharge to get the slope of the line or by coulomb counting from fully discharged ( takes a long time) to charged.
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thanks i've tried that a few times but still the same
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At least you still have a RMA coming. Leave the batteries out overnight.
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Ya ill send it back now anyway. not much choice.
So checking the cap with the dmm caused this??
well on the plus side i learned that doing that is BAD and ill never do that again!
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So I got my fluke 289 back the other day and it's working flawlessly, fair play to the lads in fluke service they even replaced the back cover as the battery connection was dodgy. new board put in so I won't open it as is calibration stickers and tested seal would have to be broken.
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Hello,
I have the same problem with my 4 years old fluke 289, when I replace my batteries I lose the time setting. The super capacitor is suffering from corrosion also.
(http://s25.postimage.org/e3xfn1cd7/no3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/e3xfn1cd7/)
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I decided to order the super capacitor and replace it myself, but after reading the posts, I decides to contact fluke, to see if it is possible to get a fix, and hopefully a calibration to my fluke 289. It was calibrated on Mar 3, 2008 and a fresh calibration will be nice.
(http://s25.postimage.org/c0n0fdckb/no1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/c0n0fdckb/)
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I called fluke service and they issued an RMA immediately. Although I am original owner, they did not ask if I am the original owner. They asked me if I had an account in fluke and I replied yes, but I could not remember my account information.
I received the RMA on May 9, 2014. Send the meter and received confirmation from fluke on May 12, 2014 that they had received my meter.
My fluke 289 was in a very good condition (like new). No scratches no dirt no sign of wear.
(http://s25.postimage.org/v1wg8vlqz/no2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/v1wg8vlqz/)
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It took some time before I got any information about the status of my fluke 289.
After 43 long waiting days (Jun 24, 2014), I received back the meter. ;DI was indescribably happy to notice that fluke: 1. replaced the main PCB, 2.replaced the LCD, 3.replaced the battery door, and calibrated the multimeter.
(http://s25.postimage.org/ttd60zj6j/no4.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ttd60zj6j/) (http://s25.postimage.org/qha9ty21n/no7.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/qha9ty21n/)
(http://s25.postimage.org/tycbwx13v/no5.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/tycbwx13v/) (http://s25.postimage.org/ql8onxwwr/no6.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ql8onxwwr/)
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The condition of my 289 was very good. I do not know why fluke replaced the battery door or the LCD, but I am very happy because my old board had ID: 1 and the new board had an ID: 3. I am not sure what are the difference between board ID: 1 and ID: 3, can anybody post a photo or provide any information about the differences?
In the beginning, I was hoping for a simple repair and calibration, what I got is almost new meter. Every part is new except for case that contain the serial No.
(http://s25.postimage.org/c0n0fdckb/no1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/c0n0fdckb/) (http://s25.postimage.org/ttd60zj6j/no4.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ttd60zj6j/)
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Probably they replaced the battery door because they had done an upgraded mould to reduce breakage in the field. Main board and LCD probably came as a pretested and prebuilt unit, so faster in the service centre to just place the whole module if doing a board swap, as you do not then risk breaking tabs and the time is shorter.
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SeanB,
Yes you are probably right. :)
What are the differences between board ID1 and board ID3?
Thanks.
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Probably the same, a revised layout or an improved circuit from early field failures. Photos somebody will no doubt make available.
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Photos somebody will no doubt make available.
So far, none of the repaired/replaced units have been taken apart by their owners in fear of voiding warranty. Eventually, a picture will show up.
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Sorry to start up an old thread, but I'm considering purchasing a new fluke 287 from an authorized dealer. Does anyone know if fluke has resolved the leaky cap issue in 2014 builds?
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I gave fluke tech support a call this morning inquiring about this issue. They claimed that this issue had been handled and that newer meters should not have this issue. Can anyone confirm this? I'm going to go ahead with the purchase. Im planning to use this for microcontroller development and msic tasks around the house and garage.
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I've not seen or heard anything that can confirm if corrective measures (new cap) have been taken. But I think you can purchase with confidence. If you have a problem in any way that Fluke don't cover related to that capacitor please post here and I'll try and assist.
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I have the same problem as well and I also gave service center 01603256620 a call.
I was told the lifetime warranty doesn't cover the corroded power capacitor.
(http://i.imgur.com/6DmDrE2.jpg)
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I've just sent another email to Fluke...
Tap me on the shoulder if I don't update this thread with a response by the 25th of this month (April) and I'll chase again.
Cheers,
Martin.
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My email was acknowledged 2 minutes after sending it to my contact at Fluke. I will post any feedback as soon as I have it.
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On 4/16/2015 11:22 AM, Wright, Dan wrote:> Hello Martin
> I’ve done some investigating on the issue of the Fluke 287/289 and the corrosion of the capacitor. Our team has looked in to this at length and arrived at the following:
> • Yes, there are instances where the capacitor is showing visible sign of discoloration, corrosion and what may be described as “leakage.”
> • Yes, this is an issue that will be addressed in the next design and production update taking place next month.
> • Despite the visual signs, there is no degradation to the performance of the meter. The component in question provides backup power to the internal clock and should it fail, the only thing affected will be time and date settings after a battery change.
> • If a user finds that the component has made the meter unusable, the user should contact a Fluke Service Center so the product can be evaluated.
>
> Best regards
> Dan
>
>
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Hi All.
I have same issue with my Fluke 287. Currently, Panasonic completely discounted all SDT Gold capacitor series (EM, EN, EP, ER) https://industrial.panasonic.com/cdbs/www-data/pdf/RDG0000/DMG0000COL12.pdf (https://industrial.panasonic.com/cdbs/www-data/pdf/RDG0000/DMG0000COL12.pdf).
They do not have direct replace from Panasonic and only taping type available in SD, SG, RF, RG series that have shelf live 10x-20x times more to compare with "problematic" EN series.
Interesting, what Gold capacitors series use Fluke in recent manufactured devices and will use for warranty repair?
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i'll share my experience.
i purchased a 289/FVF kit from Amazon last month (September), and was so disappointed to receive a unit that has a leaking capacitor.
the unit arrived with 2-bar battery level, and i tested removing batteries for a minute and when replaced back the time stuck and got ATTENTION/Error message line.
the included factory calibration slip and in the meter says the calibration made was October 24 2011.
this means i received an OLD (OLD and leaking capacitor) labeled as brandnew from amazon. 5years old! no wonder capacitor is already leaking.
i contacted Fluke, via the recent thread in my email (from previous bent probes handle issue) regarding this and still awaiting reply. meanwhile,
i contacted amazon and asked about policy regarding delivery of OLD item to a customer (because i also shipped my meter via freight forwarder).
i think they did not understand me and was told they can't help me and instead i should contact my freight forwarder. they even mistaken Fluke
as seller in Amazon. after several messages explaning what is Supercapacitor, that it is a intergral part of the device, that failing supercap renders
the device as battery hog, unable to save time/date settings, etc, i quit conversation and concluded Amazon will not help me.
so in the end, i have a "brandnew" (yes, brandnew but OLD STOCK) 289 unit with leaking capacitor. i guess, the leaking capacitor is a "feature" in
my delivered unit.
sending this for repair will be costly from my end, even if it covered by limited warranty. sometimes, buying Fluke is like wasting money.